The Real "Tipping Point" Redux

Last Sunday, during my regular stint at The American Street, I wrote about how I've been sensing a "change of heart" in my Republican friends and relatives. Here's an excerpt:

In the last week, I’ve had several extemporaneous conversations with Republican friends and relatives. Some of them are Born-Again Christians. Some of them are fiscal conservatives. Some of them are moderates who voted for Bush because they thought the Republicans were the best equipped to fight terrorism. One of them is a Republican blogger. To cut to the chase, they’ve all got “buyer’s remorse.” And it isn’t because of the bankruptcy bill, social security reform or the rise of the influence of the religious Right.

Perhaps ironically, they believe Iraq is FUBAR. And they started thinking that right after the elections there.

I also wondered aloud about how we should welcome these folks "back" so that we can all stand together and let the evil ones feel the hard swiftness of our collective shoe leather.

Well, I am happy to report what is sure to be one of many "buyer's remorse" posts. Check out these excerpts from Prolix:

Well, I am one of those “Buyer’s Remorse” republicans and I can’t think of a good way to have it rubbed in my face how wrong I was to support Shrub in Ought-Four. Don’t get me wrong, I still think going into Iraq and clearing out the bastards was the right thing to do. But I can sure as hell concede that it isn’t/wasn’t/probably won’t be done the right way. I’m pissed as hell that I was lied to and I’m more pissed that I bought it.

[snip]

The question, “What do we do about it?” leaves me stumped. Impeachment? Really? Is it as bad as that? I’m not saying it isn’t, but perhaps someone can help me out here. I like to think I’m a relatively intelligent guy and I know I haven’t been paying much attention lately, what with work being what it is and all, but impeachment? I suppose that would really be the only way to get the point across now. We can’t very well not elect him again, it’s too late for that. But the consequences of impeachment are too dire for me to support that. Dick Cheney for president? I’m thinkin’ no.

More are coming. Wait and see.

Comments

[doghouse riley]

It's the same question as the return of the Liberal Warfloggers. Same rationale, too: I really belived! I still think we were right, it's the execution that failed! How was I to know?

No welcome mat at my door then, and none now. We can turn down the volume and talk like sensible people about it, but none of this "I still know better than the people who saw clearly all along" drivel. What you can have instead is a decent interval in which to come to terms with how wrong you were and why. Save the acts of contrition for the next time the Democratic candidate, or half the populace, gets slimed in public.

The real tipping point comes when the religious right nominates the next Republican presidential candidate. And they will.

[NTodd]

I know we should welcome them back with open arms from a political POV, but I'm still too pissed at these folks for ignoring reality, dismissing us as anti-American hysterics, and now all of a sudden getting a clue and expecting that makes up for all. No, I want some penance first. There's blood on all our hands, but they get double for supporting an evil, evil bastard and sticking the US and the world with his shit for 4 more long, dark years.

[michele]

Maybe some of us aren't looking for vindication from you, NTodd. Maybe we just want to admit we were wrong.

For my penance, I'll go stand in the middle and get whipped by both sides. Much like I was doing before 9/11.

[Chris Clarke]

Mandela diidn't ask for penance: he started the reconciliation process right off the bat.

[michele]

I'm not looking to reconcile with anyone but myself.

Nor am I looking to "return" to any specific group. There's lots of bad water under the bridge and it flows from both sides - reconciliation probably isn't a reality. For now.

[NTodd]

michele - noble sentiment, but your admission doesn't bring back 1500 dead "coalition" troops or tens of thousands of Iraqis. You don't want vindication from me? Fine. Do whatever helps you sleep at night. You can start by working to actively repair the damage your vote caused.

Sorry, but I am in no mood to feel sorry about your feelings of angst. Not very charitable or Quakerly of me, but I've got an irascible side that will not be placated by your protestations that you somehow didn't know what was wrong with Bush. Since Godwin's Law has been suspended, I feel it's apt to remind you that the Germans said much the same shit after WWII.

Thank you for at least coming to your senses before we started putting people into camps...ooh, wait, too late. Oh well, gotta break a few eggs and all that, right?

Chris - good point, but note that the reconciliation process involved a national, public admission of crimes. Reconciliation isn't a wand you wave and make all go away. It's an active confrontation of the evil, followed by acceptance. You don't sweep anything under the rug.

Being someone who firmly believes in the Gandhian priniciple of satyagraha, I readily admit that I have no corner on the truth market. I recognize everybody has their own truth to contribute. As I said earlier, there's blood on all our hands--those of us who opposed the war included because we were ineffective in stopping the disaster from unfolding. I just want people to be a little more willing to own up to their mistakes, instead of saying they don't want vindication from us.

I'm not saying we should march people like michele through the streets with heads shaven, pelting them with clods of dirt. But I refuse to accept their handwringing and whispered apologies offered with an attitude that somehow we ought to shower them with praise for finally realizing that voting for a man whose administration launched an illegal, immoral war on false pretenses, actively engaged in a policy of real torture, undermined democracy and security here and abroad, catered to bigots who would deny civil rights to wide swaths of our citizens, and are now trying to dismantle all the social institutions that have been the hallmark of our republic...uh, turns out to be kinda bad.

[Chris Clarke]

I readily admit that I have no corner on the truth market.

Damn. Guess I'll have to keep looking.

[NTodd]

Chris - try Best Buy. Don't go for the extended warranty, though. Total scam.

[DJenx]

Its just like what I told many of my Republican associates before the election: "be careful what you wish for... it might just come true."
I have no pitty for those with remorse.

[ellroon]

No welcoming arms. Bush has broken three countries: Afghanistan, Iraq, and the US. He's pissed off the world community, Bolton being the last straw. He's thumbed his nose at arms treaties, the environment, civil rights, women's rights, Social Security, the economy, the middle class, the poor. He arbitrarily started a war with a sovereign nation and established torture as a right of a superpower, giving away any moral high ground we may have once had.

At a party this weekend I had a woman cheerfully tell me she had waited until when she was in the booth to vote for Kerry (even though she didn't like him and liked how Bush presented things). She figured Bush would win, so she would help balance out the other side. I choked out a mild response. She had no idea what the election had been about.

A lot of people did not think. They did not care to examine. They did not question. They voted to negate the rights of Iraqis or gays or liberals. The biggest vote for Bush was the biggest negative vote ever. Filled with the rantings of Rush and Bill and Anne, they voted to be the biggest bully, the most dominant thug on the block.

And now, with NO OBVIOUS LEARNING CURVE, we are supposed to forgive this democratic hijacking and treachery? We still are balanced on the edge of ruin and a one party state, and we are supposed to pick ourselves up and forgive when the bully asks why we can't take a joke?

Not until people have their faces rubbed in the disaster of George the Lesser's reign and an acknowledgement of the deaths in the wars he has caused, the destruction of national parks, safety nets for our elderly, the hunger of our welfare children.

No welcoming arms until they realize what went wrong, what we lost, and attempt to address it.

[NTodd]

DJenx - I think it's good they have discovered remorse, but there still is this sense that we should pat them on the head or something.

"There, there...no way you could know the guy would turn out to be *this* evil!"

You can say that to those who supported him in 2000 (heck, I thought he would suck, but never imagined just how depraved he could be). 2004? No, sorry, you had 4 years to see *exactly* what he was about, and still you called *us* traitors, merrily joined the Swifties in smearing a decorated veteran, and voted for a guy who clearly represented myriad things absolutey contrary to American ideals.

They stood up to be counted with the enemies of everything the we stand for. Who gives a damn what they believe? These folks went for the guy they'd most like to have a beer with. That's fine when voting for your frat's president, it's irresponsible during the election of the most powerful position in the world.

[Blue]

Being from Louisiana I was able to see some family members and friends in the national gaurd go off to Iraq, the grumbeling began. Now, in this former Bush strong hold, all they do is speak Ill of Bush and Iraq.

Perhaps they should have done some reading and learned about the middle east, the differing cultures and the factions within the cultures, before believing Iraq could have been won over so easily.

[Roxanne]

NTodd et al:

On a certain level, I hear what you are saying. But, we're going to need folks like
michele to change the paradigm. And she has influence. Are you sure you want to totally alienate her?

Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying folks shouldn't take some responsibility.

[ellroon]

*Sigh* I'm tired of being understanding and reasonable and nice. It pisses me off that I'm a liberal and understand nuance and respect diversity.

But ok, ok. C'mon here and get a group hug.

Now NEVER DO IT AGAIN!!

[NTodd]

Rox - if michele is being intellectually honest and has truly "converted", my snark or vitriol will not change her mind any more than my discussing facts changed her mind before November. If she's going to use my reaction to her Grand Enlightenment as an excuse to run back to Bush, then I guarantee by '06 she will find whatever justification she needs even if I were peaches and cream.

This is tough love. This is the rolled up newspaper. They shit on the rug, and I'm not going to give them a Scoobie Snack for leaving me a present in the living room.

They told us to get over 2000 and 2004. Well golly, I'm so sorry I'm hurting their feelings, but maybe they should get over it.

Let them wear the hairshirt for a while. We've got 2 years before we need to apply the Bag Balm.

[/mixing metaphors and stuff]

[Chad Robinson]

I'm sorry, and feel free to call me a pessimist, but this seems like the first stirrings of the pre-election "We're gonna win this" self-delusion. Anecdotal evidence is notoriously bad, and IIRC, Mrs. Populi lives in a tremendously blue part of the country, which makes her anecdotes on this matter doubly suspect (with due respect, I'm a fan of hers).

The deluded will, in my opinion and based on what I've seen of my countrymen, remain deluded; their cognitive dissonance feeding itself endlessly and their ignorance of world affairs ricocheting around the "heartland" states long beyond the point where their fictional view of the world makes any sense, even to themselves.

And -- more to the point -- the next election cycle we will see the Republicans once again trot out the constant boogeymen of Homosexuals, Liberals, Satanists, Foreigners and Elites to whip the idiot masses into a frenzy of self-righteous, conformist, Bush-idolatry. And all the morons will once again vote their venom. And we will all sit around, once again, and wonder what the hell is going on.

Sorry for being such a downer on this, but I am 100% convinced that the ever widening gyre which the GOP and 9/11 started will not come to an end except through calamity, and I challenge anyone here to mention a historical precedent for optimism under similar circumstances. Make no mistake: the GOP won, in part, by actively demonizing groups of their own citizens. That's a bad road to have started down... and it was easy. There's enough mindless, dog-stupid hatred in this country to feed the GOP for a good long time. Once it finally boils over and gets out of their control, the smart ones will simply ride the wave rather directing it, and will continue in power even longer.

[architect66]

Impeachment. Really. Or at least making sure that the House and Senate are equalized. Those who are feeling buyers remorse over B**h can work to rebalance the political discourse. Let us see your letters to the editor, and let us see you volunteer to become active to help steer the country in a better direction. It is easy to find a way to participate!

[Chris Clarke]

Let them wear the hairshirt for a while. We've got 2 years before we need to apply the Bag Balm.

"Take off the Stone of Shame! And attach the Stone of Triumph!"

[michele]

"They told us to get over 2000 and 2004. Well golly, I'm so sorry I'm hurting their feelings, but maybe they should get over it."

You need to know a little about me first before you make assumptions. I voted for Nader in 2000. I've been a registered Republican since 1980 and 2004 was the first time I ever voted with party in a presidential election.

I'm not a "real" Republican. I'm not even close to being conservative. I was a one issue voter. The war on terror was my only interest. That was incredibly short sighted of me, I know.

[Chris Clarke]

I'm not a "real" Republican. I'm not even close to being conservative. I was a one issue voter. The war on terror was my only interest. That was incredibly short sighted of me, I know.

I think you're a bit of a synecdoche in this thread, michele: one person who's being asked to stand in for a whole mass of people. (Also a decaying industrial town in Upstate New York.)

If all you did was vote for Bush out of fear of terrorism, I won't do much more than cluck my tongue at you. You were scammed. Be careful of that.

Folks who voted for Bush due to the laundry list of Kultur issues who're now having second thoughts because of Social Security? I wanna say "fuck 'em," but I'll work with them too.

I do some neighborhood politics, and last year worked to oppose a rather sudden environmentally threatening project almost literally in my backyard. Among the allies I worked with in that fight were a number of progressive neighbors (including long-term gay couples), idealistic and apolitical immigrants from Peru and Nigeria and the Philippines, conservative retired Republicans, and at least one far-right xenophobe. I worked with all of them gladly and made no secret about the radical left earth first type that I am.

And we won.

[NTodd]

You need to know a little about me first before you make assumptions. I voted for Nader in 2000. I've been a registered Republican since 1980 and 2004 was the first time I ever voted with party in a presidential election.

I'm not a "real" Republican. I'm not even close to being conservative. I was a one issue voter. The war on terror was my only interest. That was incredibly short sighted of me, I know.

Actually, this changes my feelings or position not in the slightest.

[Eli]

I am willing to hold off on my final judgement until I hear more from these "buyer's remorse" people.

Michele and others -- What are you going to do to help us change the way things are?

If they are willing to role up their sleeves and help us I'd be more willing to accept their "remorse."

[NTodd]

Eli - what I'm sayin':

You can start by working to actively repair the damage your vote caused.

Sorry doesn't cut it. I want to see deeds match words.

[watertiger]

Well, they can start by getting rid of their goddamned SUVs and "Support the Troops" ribbon magnets....(/snark)

I have to go with the Quaker on this one: "Deeds, not words." All we've *been* doing is reconciling, so much so that the Democratic Party is regarded as nothing more than a eunuch at this point.

Frankly, I would like to see these alleged buyers with remorse to come forth and stand alongside those of us who refused to be snookered by BushCo. to demand change from their legislators and the White House. Engage for change. Don't wait for those wacky liberal protestors to get back out on the goddamned street...again.

It's all very nice to sit in one's recliner and say, "Wow, I fucked up by voting for Bush" and then go back to watching "American Idol."

[Lauren]

Well, this thread has gotten awfully personal. Don't go tripping on your shoelaces tyring to rip Michele to shreds.

I don't need any political penance. A simple "I was duped" will do. No penance isn't going to bring back lives or reerect buildings bombed into powder, so I suggest we all rethink whether or not we all want former Republican voters to walk out of the city with rocks in their shoes. What kind of good does that do, other than soothe some need for liberal moral comeuppance?

[thehim]

Interesting discussion.

Michele, thanks for the honesty. I still know too many people who bought into the stereotype that Bush would be more effective in the War on Terror because Republicans are strong, and are still burying their head in the sand over his recklessness and dishonesty. Bush is bringing down a party that I believe once had a strong sense of responsibility and courage. Unfortunately, he'll be taking down the whole country to some extent along the way until we figure it out.

I was a one-issue voter myself in 2004. If you make a mistake as big as invading Iraq with no plan to get out, you don't get my endorsement for a second term. But patriotic optimism and media cheerleading go a long way in this country.

[grover]

While some may ask for these people to get lost or not be accepting, I would take a different tact. It would sound something like this:

"Hi, my name is grover. Welcome to the fight."

I dunno. I just see no reason to publicly castigate a group of people who might help us overcome the Republican dominance of government. What good does it do but to stroke our own intellectual egos a bit? How many votes did we lose Ohio by? Florida? I guess it comes down to whether we want to win, or do we want to prove how right were and flaunt it. At some point, I would think, we should just want to win and put this period of GOP dominance behind us and start to make things right again.

[eRobin]

Look, it's easy: No permanent friends, no permanent enemies, only permanent interests.

Any time wasted on wardrobe is a mistake.

[Chris Clarke]

I guess it comes down to whether we want to win, or do we want to prove how right were and flaunt it.

Exactly right.

At one point or another, I have despised every single president since Nixon. At one point or another, I have considered anyone who voted for any of them to be misguided, ill-informed dupes. Bush is the worst by a long shot, but this fight is nothing new.

And hey, guess what, fellow pissed lefties: sudden opportunities abound for us to take advantage of, if we can see past our own justifiable outrage and - without letting go of that outrage - act as human beings toward those who may at the moment be our opposition.

If footsoldiers decide to defect from the other side, we don't have to greet them with open arms and instant forgiveness. But it's probably a good idea to stop shooting at them.

[tovan]

Forgiveness or brickbats is moot. The important thing right now, right at this moment, is for the remorseful to make their change of heart loud and clear to their congressional representatives. (Frankly, it's the least they can do, if they're honorable.) If Republicans in Congress had REPUBLICAN support to stop voting in neo-con lockstep, the Bush administration might be restrained from yet more fiscal irresponsibility.

[NTodd]

Well, this thread has gotten awfully personal. Don't go tripping on your shoelaces tyring to rip Michele to shreds.

I don't think it's gotten personal. Nobody's called anybody names. We've merely observed that the folks now getting a clue about Bush are getting all upset that we're upset at them for unleashing this horror upon us.

"Hi, my name is grover. Welcome to the fight."

Again, nice sentiments. I'll gladly say something like that when they demonstrate a little more committment to said fight than "gosh, I feel so silly."

Tell me what you're going to do to make things right. Are you going to register as a Dem, or a Green, or an Indy? Are you going to write Bush and tell him why you're experiencing buyer's remorse? Are you going to stand on the street corner with Pat K and others who have been holding vigil every week since the war started, being stared at and insulted and condemned as traitors? Are you going to fight to save Social Security from the corporatist fiends? Are you going to work for Democratic candidates leading up to 2006?

Hey, in the mob they make you kill somebody to prove your loyalty. I'm not going that far: I just want something other than "I'm really sorry and I promise not to do something this stupid again."

All the handwringing about how we're making these folks feel bad is touching, really, and eventually I'll be ready to join a round of Kumbaya at the bonfire, and become blood brothers and go out for pizza and milkshakes. Not today.

And again, if my writing a few comments about how I'm pissed and want actions to back up words is enough to send these folks scurrying back to other side, they're not people we can count on in 2006. Deathbed conversions are a bit hollow.

[ellroon]

The frustration is that we have been yelling ourselves hoarse over the corruption of this administration. We have pointed out the undemocratic actions and attitudes only to be hushed and told to be nice spineless, nuanced liberals who cannot stand up to the righteous, manly republicans. Insults have poured down from pundits and politicians alike on those who pointed out the truth. Look at the mockery of the French. Look at how the Canadians are being vilified for saying no. People so abused become furious.

We have seen people needlessly dying: Iraqi and Afghan, American and Italian and Pole in a war begun in fraud and deception, based on hubris, run by greedy corporations, fought by unprepared soldiers. The Pandora's box of evils this one action alone has unleashed will have ripple effects for generations. We have not yet realized the depth of the trouble we have activated.

America has been declared a Christian nation when Jefferson and Franklin were deists and knew how dangerous a country was that could not keep God out of politics. Suddenly hatred is a new religious tenet. Jesus himself would not recognize some of those who claim to speak in his name. Gays are the new 'Jews', verbal pogroms have begun to vilify our neighbors and our family members.

We have seen our citizens vote in hysteria on issues unimportant to those seeking power. We have the poor voting against their own interests. We have people suggesting that education is liberal and dangerous. We have people suggesting that torture should be legal, that imprisoning and disappearing so-called evildoers is logical.
We have people suggesting that internment did no harm, that Joe McCarthy was a good guy, that the UN is useless.

It is like an abuser slowly cutting off all avenues of escape. Slowly we are being isolated and silenced. We are unable to get the mainstream media to print or show the truth. The internet can hardly contain our outrage.

So finally, when we are empowered by the anger we feel, and have ceased to try to reason and listen to those in power, we are asked to be understanding and grateful to those who have seen the light.

Ok.

C'mon in and sit down. We have something to say.

[Hanna]

Anything to make this insanity end. I hope someone saved the receipt.

Welcome to the team, Michelle. :)

(And Roxanne's friends and relatives. :) )

Love,

Hanna

[Chris Clarke]

And again, if my writing a few comments about how I'm pissed and want actions to back up words is enough to send these folks scurrying back to other side, they're not people we can count on in 2006.

You're definitely right about that, and you have the complete right to speak your mind, which you do ethically and well. Please don't construe my response as criticism of you, NTodd. It's more like I'm thinking things though myself.

I have to confess that "wanting people to do more" is a bit of a slippery slope for me. Because for the last few years I'm at the point where I get impatient with people if all they do is get arrested at demonstrations every time Bush starts a new war. Fed up with people who have kids and nice incomes and 2300-square-foot houses in which they have their nice little Move On Meetups and then go back to work at Schwab, or wherever.

And where does that get us? It gets us a trotskyist cult infighting hell.

So I like increments instead:

Bush voter -> Not Bush voter
Not Bush voter -> puts yard sign up for Bush opponent
Yard sign -> letter to editor of paper
LTTE -> harangues people on blogs instead of working all day

and so forth, on up through

runs for school board -> spearheads purge of creationists from school board

to

thinks about living life of resistance to tyranny ->
lives life of resistance to tyranny.

As Victor Jara once sang, "put one foot in front of the other, and soon you'll be walking out the door." Or was that Rankin Bass?

[William Bollinger]

It was Rankin Bass.

Unfotunately, the song I keep hearing is Foreigner, "The Damage is Done"

[NTodd]

Because for the last few years I'm at the point where I get impatient with people if all they do is get arrested at demonstrations every time Bush starts a new war. Fed up with people who have kids and nice incomes and 2300-square-foot houses in which they have their nice little Move On Meetups and then go back to work at Schwab, or wherever.

I give this a hearty "amen" even though to a certain extent it describes me!

Ever since the war in Bosnia, I've wondered about what more I should do. Back then, way before blogs, I belonged to a Quaker e-mail list. Spoke quite a bit with the moderator, who did work on Bosnia and other war-torn places. I asked if I should go, but in the end he convinced me not to. I won't go into the whole thing, but he gave me lots to think about.

All of us can do more, but we must also recognize each of us has limitations. No, strike that. Each of us has a contructive role to play, and it's most assuredly different than that of our neighbors'. The important thing is that we play those roles, expand them where we can, and try to ensure we never find ourselves in the position where we lament what might have been had we done X.

And that's what is extremely frustrating to me about all this stuff. Doing X requires a bit of engagement and foresight. Just a minimal amount of both was enough for most of us to get what Bush was about--you don't have to write LTTEs or march on DC or anything to exercise your franchise responsibly. So I don't have high hopes for the people finally coming to Jesus. What will be the next thing that will drive them away again? Another terror attack? Better agitprop from BushCo? Or just falling back into their default position because it's comfortable?

Being an Independent, I'm beholden to no party and try to find common ground with everybody (heck, I write a weekly column on the subject for Blue and Red magazine). I am happy to work with people of all stripes, but it's got to be in good faith. I don't see a lot of good faith coming from the Bush supporters just yet.

I'm pleased many have taken that first step and recognize they were in error. I support them in that and in what I hope will be their future corrective measures. I also see in them a lot of the same things I see in me, which simultaneously gives me hope and scares the hell out of me.

[Phoenician in a time of Romans]

I'm not a "real" Republican. I'm not even close to being conservative. I was a one issue voter. The war on terror was my only interest. That was incredibly short sighted of me, I know.

Michele, I'm an outside observer.

I think much of the rest of the world took the 2004 election of Bush as an endorsement of his actions over the previous 4 years. That is, an endorsement of aggressive invasions, of blatant lying, of condoning torture, of eroding civil rights both in the US and abroad, and of making the world a more dangerous place in the pursuit of a cowboy ideology.

By endorsing Bush, the American people took responsibility. Every dead Iraqi, every picture of a naked prisoner being tormented, every lie uttered by Bush is now condoned by those who voted for him.

You have blood on your hands, Michele.

We're not going to ignore that.

What do you intend to do about it?

[joe]

"and if my thoughtdreams could be seen
they'd probably put my head in a guillotine
and its all right Ma, I can make it".
Bob Dylan

[PZ Myers]

I used to read A Small Victory regularly. I think Michele is smart and interesting and a fine writer. I also do not object to people who prioritize single issues as the most important topic (I've got a mania or two, myself). What put me off wasn't so much that she was deeply concerned about the impact terrorism was having on our country, but that her response was so shallow and, well, uncivilized. I couldn't exactly blame her--I think it's common and natural to lash out angrily at those who make us fear--but it was disturbing to me to see someone intelligent get taken in by the "bomb 'em into the stone age" set.

That lack of nuance, that need to punish and get revenge, and offering support to whoever promises the simplest, most direct path to the desired bloody reply, is what turned me off. I hate those terrorists myself, but I just couldn't see how blowing up cities in the Middle East was going to resolve anything.

But now turn that around. The people who supported Bush have done a stupid and self-destructive thing, driven by that fear and anger. Isn't it also stupid and self-destructive for us to demand a pound of flesh from our mere political opponents? Shouldn't our goal be reconciliation with our compatriots and recruiting more people to fix this godawful mess the right-wing extremists have got us in? I'm really not interested in sticking the knife in -- I just want people like Michele to apply some wit and passion and energy to helping all of us fix things.

[NTodd]

Isn't it also stupid and self-destructive for us to demand a pound of flesh from our mere political opponents?

First: Metaphor vs. literal pound of flesh.

Second: This ain't usury, this is the folks who were condemned as traitors demanding to see good faith efforts to back up words of contrition. I fail to see how that is wrong or politically disastrous.

[PZ Myers]

Nothing is wrong with that. I'm not even going to make the small concession of rushing over to read Michele's site more often now.

But I think it is appropriate to stand back and give the people having second thoughts a tiny bit of space, rather than slapping them around. That's all. We are eventually going to have to treat them as fellow citizens, right?

[Phoenician in a time of Romans]

But I think it is appropriate to stand back and give the people having second thoughts a tiny bit of space, rather than slapping them around. That's all. We are eventually going to have to treat them as fellow citizens, right?

Eventually. But it took a while before people gave the Good Germans space as well.

And, of course, there's still room for the situation to get a whole lot worse - I haven't seen any indication "buyers remorse" will have a political effect yet, nor is there any indication that the US body politic will still retain what little sanity it still has in the face of another mediapathic terorist attack.

[grannyinsanity]

Boy do I understand the desire to make them wallow in their own filth, but it isn't good for anybody.

Instead of holding a grudge, ask them to help get the goons out of office and behind bars where they belong.

Forgive very qiuck group hug get back to work

[Chris Clarke]

Here's a rhetorical question for the "blood on the hands" folks: so what have you done to change things, other than blogging and casting that one vote against Bush?

A vote for Bush was an important betrayal of a numbr of things I hold dear. But is that one vote for Bush really MORE of a contributor to the war in Iraq than, say, using up ten tanks of gasoline a year on non-essential trips? Or owning a mixed-load diversified retirement account with holdings in energy or weapons companies?

Do you have a cell phone? Cell phones are built with coltan, an ore mined from streams in the Democratic Republic of Congo. Coltan mining financially supports both sides in the civil war there. You own a cell phone? Blood on your hands.

Much chocolate is harvested in West Africa by child slave labor. Only a few small chocolate makers certify their chocolate as non-slave produced. Have you eaten chocolate from a large company, without checking its provenance? Blood on your hands.

Have you burned gasoline to get somewhere you could have walked? Used any electricity that came from a coal- or oil-fired or nuclear power plant? Blood on your hands.

Are you a North American landowner of ethnic origin other than Native American? Blood on your hands.

Not a very useful metric, is it?

If someone voted for Bush in a non-swing state but against six local GOP candidates who lost by close margins, does she get a pardon? If someone voted for Bush and volunteers teaching literacy in the local public schools, gives 5K per annum to the Heifer project and has adopted disabled kids, does he get less of a pardon than a Kerry voter whose sole other social activism is posting comments on blogs?

Let's not conflate past behavior and present attitude. Let's not demean all of political life by making a fricking vote the metric of all merit. And let's not be self-righteous about that vote when you cannot live in this society without dipping your hands in blood.

[NTodd]

Let's not conflate past behavior and present attitude.

Ah, but the behavior in which you engaged yesterday is more predictive of your future actions than what you did 30 years ago. It takes time to heal wounds and to demonstrate good faith.

Further, I will never say to people who see their duty ending as soon as they cast aside the curtain of the voting booth that they aren't doing enough. Responsible exercise of franchise is an incrediby important part of changing the world.

Your rhetorical examples are both powerful and not germane. We all have blood on our hands, as I've said previously, but casting a vote for Bush clearly indicates where one stands more than eating a chocolate. You have told the world that you are willing to re-elect the most powerful man in the world even after you've seen what destruction he has wrought. I don't remember seeing any ads about candy bars leading up to November.

[Chris Clarke]

OK, fine. Find the logical holes in my arguments. See if I care.

And I agree with the need to demonstrate good faith. What's more, I agree that some of this demand for forgiveness on the part of the "reluctant right" is of a piece with the demands for civility from our side only.

But I think the bit about energy consumption habits was germane. And I think this bit:

even after you've seen what destruction he has wrought

overstates our own effectiveness at getting our message out. The operative concept is that they were misled. If we expect people to beleve us just because we know we're right, we'll be disappointed again.

[Chris Clarke]

Oh, and my distaste for the blood on the hands thing being said doesn't apply to people outside the US. More power to 'em.

[NTodd]

OK, fine. Find the logical holes in my arguments. See if I care.

It's all part of the immense, if underappreciated, value I bring the blogosphere.

I think the bit about energy consumption habits was germane.

Objection withdrawn, though I would like to note that I believe part of that lies with exactly the problem you ID later: we clearly aren't effective at communicating our message. Or maybe people aren't listening effectively any more.

I mean, oil hits 58 dollars a barrell and people still drive their SUVs. They do that, vote for Bush...clearly they aren't paying attention. Maybe it doesn't matter what our message is or how well we promulgate it. If a tree falls in the woods...